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aldersprigpiratekitten has declared February world-building month. Every day in February, I answered question about any one of my settings.
The question post is here.
The fourth question comes from an offline friend and is for the Faerie Apocalypse
What does the world look like in the year 2150?
The short answer is: I don't know yet. I've only specced out in any detail at all through about fifty years after the apoc.
What I know:
Starting from a noncimated population of about 31,000,000 at the end of 2012, the American population did not grow for at least a generation (say, until 2035) - disease, starvation, contaminated water and food sources, and a lack of expected medical supplies, as well as remaining returned gods, isolationism, small territory wars, and monsters spawned by the Collapse conspired to keep the population very low, actually trickling down a bit more to around 29 million people.
By 2050, the population was beginning to grow again:
33 million in 2050, 57 million by 2080. By that rate, it's safe to assume that, by 2150, the population of what had been the United States might get to be around 120,000,000 or a little over 1/3 of what it is IRL today.
140 years is a long time in terms of oral history and predjudice; the first generation of humans after the war almost universally hated fae; even those who had experienced positive relationships with specific fae didn't like all Ellehemaei. There were maybe "a few good apples" in an otherwise rotten bunch.
And predatory Ellehemaei did not help that impression: especially directly after the war, there were more than a few fae who set up their own little nation-states - some not so little. There were humans who did the same, of course, but the fae "cheated," using magic and their innate durability and longevity to hold positions of strength over "lesser" humans.
In general, by 2060, there are some humans who believe that fae are all right, maybe less than 25% of the whole population. By 2150, the numbers have shifted in the other direction, and nearly 75% of the population believes, if not that Ellehemaei the equals of humans, at least that they should be allowed to co-exist. And many in both eras know they can be useful ("just get someone who can make the collaring stick and use it!")
By 2060, Addergoole and Addergoole East were already having a strong influence on the world around them: their graduates became teachers, mayors, despots, doctors, city-builders. By 2150, two creations of Addergoole grads are also shaping the world: a teaching hospital and Doomsday Academy, both formed around 2060.
~
This is a bit all over the place, back to government for a moment. In 2060, the remains of the United States is governed in primarily settlement-based city-states, with as little contact with other settlements as possible, save by those who wander, either to sell goods or offer services. By 2150, many of those settlements have begun to coalesce into small countries; there are 6 major-geographic-area nations and at least 25 smaller ones, many of who battle over land on a semi-regular basis.
The world will never again be what it was before the Collapse, but what it could become is still wide open.
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Date: 2014-03-13 11:31 pm (UTC)• noncimated??
• 120,000
> Throw in another ",000", yes?
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Date: 2014-03-13 11:33 pm (UTC)reduced by 9/10; I coined it
and yes, missed a ,000.
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Date: 2014-03-14 02:19 am (UTC)Yes, it's Russian for "Very interesting!"
reduced by 9/10; I coined it
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Date: 2014-03-14 02:52 am (UTC)Cool!
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Date: 2014-03-14 10:24 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-03-20 11:13 pm (UTC)Decimated is probably made up of deci and mated and so I would have to bow to a linguist's expertise of the 9/10 equivalent of 1/10 in latin because my latin is 0%. That said I did guess that you may have meant "9/10 killed" when searchin teh intarwebz did not result in a definition. Sometimes teh intarwebz do not know all.
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Date: 2014-03-20 11:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-08-12 10:12 pm (UTC)I'm not sure I can see this. The Ellehemaei (the native ones I mean, not the returned gods) have been using humans as their playthings for millennia. The staff of Addergoole, the root of these supposed decent Ellehemaei, have admitted to doing that very thing on several occasions. The way they talk about humans, the way they treat the not even completely human parents of the students shows nothing of respect or any kind of equality. I won't even go into how they treat the students themselves. Once the veil of secrecy is lifted all that history is going to come out. And even if we disregard the pre-apoc history, I don't see that the Ellehemaei are going to stop dicking around with humans just because human civilization has fallen. If anything they're going to do it more, since they now have much less to fear then before. Due to the brainwashing and general trauma the students suffer in Addergoole I can't see that they're not going to have the same general attitude. And this isn't even considering the Nedetakaei. Early on (but not directly after) post-apoc humans might be too in need of what the Ellehemaei can supply. But the Ellehemaei's continued high-handedness plus lingering resentment from the apoc is never going to allow these races to live in peace. Not unless the Ellehemaei go back into hiding, which is unlikely to be possible now that the cat is out of the bag; or the race as a whole changes considerably, which they've shown absolutely no indication they can, at least not on any scale not measured in at least centuries; or one race enslaves the other, which would be difficult because the Ellehemaei are too powerful and the humans are too numerous. There was a reason why the Ellehemaei were hiding from humanity to begin with after all.
Cheers,
Kuro_Neko
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Date: 2014-08-12 10:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-08-12 11:30 pm (UTC)Kuro_Neko
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Date: 2014-08-12 11:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-08-14 07:38 pm (UTC)One thing to note is that while the ratio of Ellehemaei to humans is definitely greater after the Faerie War, it is still important to realize that the percentage of pureblood Ellehemaei is almost vanishingly small. There are a mere handful even before the War, with the number per continent in the double or even single digits. This is approximately halved during the War. And these are the Ellehemaei that make up the bulk of "Ellehemaei" culture as we and the faculty at Addergoole understand it.
Then there are the halfbreeds, which are more significant in numbers and about a third of which survive overall. And this, this is where Addergoole itself makes things really interesting. There are a few thousand Changed halfbreeds before the War, I think, and afterwards there are hundreds or maybe a couple thousand world-wide at most.
Add to that, the training and cy'ree/crew support circles of the graduates of Addergoole prepared them to survive the War better, so their survival percentage was more like half or better.
And add to that, Addergoole's graduation requirement means that the school produces roughly 25 new halfbreeds per year, while the halfbreeds in the "wild" have maybe a dozen per year on average. And the pure Ellehemaei born are probably more like one or two a decade, with their low breeding and population rates.
This means that a mere fifty years after the collapse of modern civilization and death of 90% of the world population, the continent of North America will be home to probably 50% or more of the entire global Ellehemaei population, most of whom grew up as or at least friendly with humans and many of whom are going to have been actively working with humans to help them against the Bad Guys.
Considering how many of the graduates of Addergoole are resentful of the school within a few years of graduation and thus resentful of Ellehemaei culture, they're going to wholesale reject almost all of the traditional Ellehemaei prejudices and very likely be actively working towards befriending and aiding humanity.
On the note of Keeping and humanity's opinion of it, I doubt that would become common knowledge. We as readers know far, far more about Ellehemaei than they would be prone to sharing. Anything beyond the plant "allergies", ability to use magic, and their word being literally physically binding, I doubt they would care to or bother to divulge. The Belonging cannot involve humans, after all; it's a part of the Law that binds all Ellehemaei and so requires both parties to be Ellehemaei.
And on the related note of slavery, I really do think that your reaction to it is and would be the minority. A very significant portion of modern Americans would, if presented with it using the right words and involving the right people, simply turn a blind eye or even think that they "deserve it". Depressing, but true. Compared to a lot of modern American prison culture, the Ellehemaei Belonging is a treat. (I'd really, really rather not get into a discussion of prison, though, so if you want to disagree just state that you disagree and we'll leave it at that.)
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Date: 2014-08-14 07:39 pm (UTC)p.s. whoops I messed up, it's actually more like 13 children per year via AG grad reqs but everything else still stands
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Date: 2014-08-14 09:45 pm (UTC)Your numbers sound about right. I always felt that the graduates of Addergoole made up a large portion of the total Ellehemaei population post-apoc. That said, the Nedetakaei don't hold with half-breeds at all. So for them to be any kind of threat, their numbers of purebloods has to be much higher.
As to 'grew up as or at least friendly with humans' the school does their damnest (intentionally or not) to completely alienate the students from their human lives and we've seen snippets in-story that shows they're successful at least some of the time. After surviving a year in Addergoole the students, especially the girls, have considerable trouble relating to their peers or even their parents again. How that extends to graduates relating to adult humans I'm not sure, but there's probably at least some comparison.
As to 'how many graduates of Addergoole are resentful of the school' I've been saying from day one how that's what I would see as the prevalent attitude and everyone keeps telling me that it's not the case. That if the students blame anyone it's most often each other rather then the staff or their parents, which is in my mind the logical choices.
As to Keeping becoming common knowledge among humans, how could it not, if the Ellehemaei spend any time in close contact with the humans? A person wearing a collar, who is very subdued and obeys every order they're given by the other and takes care of all the menial chores and duties? How is slave not the logical conclusion?
As to humans not caring... I'm not sure how to address that. On one hand, my cynical view of humanity agrees. At the same time, history kinda disagrees. And I think at least a good portion of the black population of America would care, since slavery is still quite fresh in their racial memory. There would still be people alive who remember the white only schools, white only drinking fountains and the back of the bus mentality.
As to 'Belonging can't involve humans' those two year one monsters (their names escape me at the moment) seemed to have disagreed, and just used Words to make it involve them. That conclusion would certainly be one I'd come to, that if they're willing to do that to their own kind, what's going to stop them from doing it to humanity. Especially since that's more or less what the returned gods are trying to do.
Seeing as post-apoc Addergoole grads make up the bulk of the Ellehemaei population and thus the Ellehemaei culture, the staff had a huge opportunity to basically re-write their whole culture into something better. An opportunity they by and large completely wasted. The only thing they really consciously edited out of their culture was the half-breed racism. They could also have just thrown Ellehemaei culture completely out and continued to treat the students as human which would have completely solved the culture clash. Instead they went out of their way to beat Ellehemaei culture into them, to rival any cult. Why exactly they did this I'm not really sure. Cultural blindness is my best guess. There are plenty of people in every culture who never really look at the 'truths' of their culture because they're raised with them and they have become inherent truths, things that simply are. This can probably be mostly laid at the feet of Regine's multitude of blind-spots, but the rest of the staff suffer from it to lesser or greater degrees.
Cheers,
Kuro_Neko
PS I think you had it right the first time. The grad requirements require every student to have two kids, so as to basically replace themselves. They may only be able to produce half of those per year (since it takes two to make one baby) but it'll average out since they'll be making their second baby at the same time the next year is making their first.
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Date: 2014-08-15 03:11 pm (UTC)The point about hostile Keepings is actually a divergence from actual Ellehemaei Keeping culture, but I think is totally valid. A good fraction of grads do, I think, wind up with horribly unhealthy ideas about Belonging along the "eat or be eaten" lines, though thankfully it's a definite minority. I have a vague recollection from a conversation with Lyn at some point that some of the AG staff attempts to, ah, "correct" some of the students who go about being black-hats after graduation, but I don't remember the details. I think it might resemble what they did with Manira back when they found out that she wasn't what she looked like. (At least I think that's the right name. Full Daeva who swore an oath with a dying girl and wound up taking her place at Addergoole, back in the original series?) So I think that the instances of horrible awful AG grads going around doing horrible awful things to other humans and Ellehemaei after graduating are lower than they could be, probably hovering in the low single-digit percentages?
There wind up being a whole ton of AG grads who expect other Ellehemaei to do horrible awful things to them, though, which I think would help motivate the friendly-with-humans sentiment. Not necessarily respectful, mind, but I think a bunch of them fake it if necessary.
On the note of resentment, I dunno if I've talked about it with you before, but my personal stance is a lot of people are like "going to Addergoole was crappy and I resent going", but very few are like "Addergoole is crappy and horrible let's burn it down". (The latter being a sentiment I think I have seen brought up as likely before by... someone, possibly multiple someones.)
And going back to my bit about paranoia, Keeping is - I believe - at least an order of magnitude less frequent out "in the wild" than it is in Addergoole. Rather than like a quarter of the population being in a Keeper/Kept relationship, I think it's rather rare. Rare enough that it's very possible a human might never encounter it first-hand. If they do encounter it, and the Ellehemaei in question aren't trying to hide it, then yeah they'll definitely pick up on it as servitude of some sort. Outright slavery, though, I'm less sure. (Besides, it's canonical that there are some slave traders going around the country. Not a lot, not welcome everywhere, but enough that they can present a danger to, say, young people travelling alone.)
People are really, really good at justifying things that are useful, and usually using the ingrained "us" and "them" divisions that humans come to naturally. So, I think some humans, especially who view faeries as "them", would really not care if they were enslaved and might actually think that was the appropriate way to deal with all of them. If anything, I think they would have to fight against the concept of enslaving Ellehemaei as part of getting humanity to accept them as near-equals.
I don't remember the story you're referencing with the "two monsters"; I'm gonna have to poke Lyn about it to see what you're talking about. I am intrigued.
"An opportunity they by and large completely wasted."
I KNOW, RIGHT. Sighhh, the Addergoole staff is so insightful in some ways and then so incredibly short-sighted in others. But you know, it's possible that some of the faculty who are most displeased with certain moral aspects of the school or Ellehemaei society make more of a push to those kind of changes in the curricula after the world actually falls apart. I'd be curious to know if they did.
(I'm also curious to know what kind of an impact Doomsday Academy might make.)
p.s. no, the corrected one is right. There are roughly 25+ new students per year, each student is there for 4 years, during that 4 years they need to have 2 kids, so they average with each year having half a kid per year... wait. No, you're right, because that'd be 50 per year, except each kid counts for two students, so that's 25 per year.
MATH. I can do it, I swear.
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Date: 2014-08-15 03:17 pm (UTC)This story - http://addergoole.com/Loose.html and then the one after it.
Also happens non-canonically in a few places: Judith, for one.
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Date: 2014-08-15 06:27 pm (UTC)Except the culture as expressed by Addergoole carefully edits out that halfbreed racism. But we don't really get much of a look at anyone a few decades outside of school, other then Boom, who are all not right in the head so it's as you said it's kinda up in the air. An eighth also isn't a lot, it's only three out of the average twenty-five grads a year.
A good fraction of grads do, I think, wind up with horribly unhealthy ideas about Belonging along the "eat or be eaten" lines, though thankfully it's a definite minority.
A minority that experienced the worst of it first hand, or are interested in being the eaters, yes. But I think the bulk of the grads have this ingrained paranoia regarding meeting strange Ellehemaei that has it's roots in that 'eat or be eaten' hostile Keeping thing.
I have a vague recollection from a conversation with Lyn at some point that some of the AG staff attempts to, ah, "correct" some of the students who go about being black-hats after graduation
That actually ties into those two monsters I mentioned before. Finally got around to looking up their names: Meshach and Shadrach. There's a canon story (can't remember which one) where two of the staff check on them after grad and they have a human girl all tied up in mind workings, effectively making her their Kept, and they're treating her horribly. So the staff member with the mind powers (Reid?) wammys them so each week they offer to belong to each other (alternating). Only offering, the one getting the offer is under no compulsion to accept. But he does anyway. We don't see what happens, at least I don't think we do. But the implication is one of them killed the other, or they killed each other, or something like that. Those two were the definition of evil, but if they could do that sort of thing others could as well. And post-apoc it's going to be much harder for the staff to keep track of all the grads, especially as their numbers increase (by the end of the program there's going to be roughly three thousand grads, there's no way two dozen staff could possibly keep track of all of them). There's also mention of at least two or three other grads that have gone full on Nedetakaei type evil.
There wind up being a whole ton of AG grads who expect other Ellehemaei to do horrible awful things to them, though
Agreed, see above about 'eat or be eaten'.
On the note of resentment, I dunno if I've talked about it with you before, but my personal stance is a lot of people are like "going to Addergoole was crappy and I resent going", but very few are like "Addergoole is crappy and horrible let's burn it down". (The latter being a sentiment I think I have seen brought up as likely before by... someone, possibly multiple someones.)
That someone was probably me. In my early days, before Wysteria mostly talked me out of it (I still back-slide occasionally), I was convinced that the grads were going to band together and crush the school, under sheer weight of numbers if nothing else. I've, as I said, mostly been convinced that while I may feel that way after going there it would not be the common result. I still feel that protectiveness of their kids would bring them to act if nothing else, but apparently that's wrong too. *shrug* Cleone (sp?) here in the DW shorts is about the only realistic second plus generation parent I've seen so far. She has a safe secure place to raise her kids, feels she's fully capable of educating them and sees no reason to send them to a place where there's a one in three chance they'll be horribly abused. And she's willing to do anything it takes to prevent that from happening. A woman after my own heart.
Keeping is - I believe - at least an order of magnitude less frequent out "in the wild" than it is in Addergoole.
I can agree with that, if only because the population density of Ellehemaei is so low that the chance of one fey running into another is vanishingly small. All these confrontations Lyn writes are a result of author's license and would be unlikely to really happen in RL. I can more or less agree with the rest of that paragraph as well, some good points.
"us" and "them" divisions
Another good point. Though that division would not help peaceful co-existence.
I don't remember the story you're referencing with the "two monsters"; I'm gonna have to poke Lyn about it to see what you're talking about. I am intrigued.
See above regarding Meshach and Shadrach. I can't remember what story it is that covers the above mentioned situation though.
the Addergoole staff is so insightful in some ways and then so incredibly short-sighted in others.
They insisted on the students being raised as humans but didn't bother to acquaint themselves with human culture or behaviors not to mention not recruiting anyone with any modern education, child management or child psychological experience. Sure they got a psychiatrist, who doesn't show any evidence of having specialized in children and is in fact completely out of touch with what they're actually going through. The only staff member who actually seemed to have a clue was Kairos, and when she brought her concerns to Regine, Regine completely ignored her. They went into this with no plan, no experience, no training... I really don't know what they were thinking. I'd have thought if they were going to open a school, they'd recruit some, you know, teachers? But perhaps they did try to recruit some and as soon as they outlined their basic plan the teacher left in complete disgust. Both my father and my grandmother are/were teachers, and good ones. I don't even have to ask them what they'd think about a school like Addergoole, they'd be horrified. Any teacher worth the title would be.
But you know, it's possible that some of the faculty who are most displeased with certain moral aspects of the school or Ellehemaei society make more of a push to those kind of changes in the curricula after the world actually falls apart. I'd be curious to know if they did.
We've seen several canon stories that jump ahead a bit and things really don't seem to improve. The only real steps toward improvement were Luke forcing Regine to take a full cy’ree of students to keep her better in touch with the students as people (which I have my doubts will have much effect) and a brief mention that there are now frequent room spot checks, to make sure bad things aren't happening behind closed doors; a result of a daughter of Luke's ending up in a really bad situation. Speaking of which, I should commission Lyn to write the details of that one of these days.
Cheers,
Kuro_Neko
Edit: I see Lyn has already chimed in with the link to the Meshach and Shadrach story. Cheers.
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Date: 2014-08-15 06:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-08-15 06:53 pm (UTC)Kuro_Neko
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Date: 2014-08-16 03:31 pm (UTC)Kuro_Neko
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Date: 2014-08-16 07:34 pm (UTC)And really, sometimes all I need is a reminder that people aren't attacking me.
(I'm awfully thin-skinned for a writer on the internet <.<)
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Date: 2014-08-15 11:35 pm (UTC)Gonna skip over cultural education thingie for the moment as I don't have anything interesting to add, buuuut!
So, the thing with students sending or not sending or whatever their kids back to Addergoole is an interesting subject, and in my opinion one of the more... hrm. One of the worst effects of going to Addergoole, even more than the whole thing with the nature of Keeping. And it goes back to that subtle mind-control thing I was mentioning before.
There are a whole shitton of Workings on the place, things that bend the Law so that the students can do things like Keeping someone that they actually couldn't do if they were elsewhere because they aren't Named yet, but the most insidious one is the one that pushes them to "not freak out", to sort of loosely paraphrase. The idea behind it - and much like a lot of the school it's not a bad idea, just really poorly executed by the staff - is to help students who were raised human to adjust to being Ellehemaei, to growing wings and tails and horns and changing color and doing magic and all of that. Unfortunately, that artificially enhanced acceptance combined with the "learn things by experience" a.k.a. "the hard way" attitude towards teaching, the whole "trial Keeping/trapping" so that students can learn what it involves and what sort of tricks to avoid getting caught by, encourages a very fatalistic sort of view towards the world and Bad Things happening. In essence, it works to repress rebellious attitudes at a subconscious level. In general, from what I've seen, most people either buy into the fatalism, have a not-awful time at Addergoole and so don't have that fatalism as strongly encouraged, or just crack.
And not only that, but a lot of these kids or young adults going to Addergoole weren't ready to have kids and didn't want kids. You are totally right that a sane, loving parent wouldn't want to send their kids to Addergoole, would probably do everything possible to try to prevent them from being taken, but how many of these students are loving parents? Some, but definitely not all. Some basically abandon their kids to the creche, some view their kids as an unfortunate burden, some grow to care over time, while others might see their kids as some sort of tool for small revenge on the school. And most of those parents who do care, I think, see their children going to Addergoole with a tired sense of inevitability and just try to prepare them as best as they can. It's only the minority of incredibly strong-willed students that would actively rebel. I'm sure that one lady isn't the only one over the years, but I don't think it'd be a very significant fraction.
Anyway, on the note of Luke and Regine's cy'ree, I think that was even before the Apocalypse. I don't think we've really seen a whole lot (if anything?) done in the later years that we were speculating about, like the 40th Cohort or later.
And honestly, I think Mendosa is a better psychiatrist than you seem to think; we just haven't really seen... well, anything by her. Not implausibly because Lyn is not a shrink and so wouldn't know how to write an effective therapy session? I mean, at least, all of the characters I know of who wind up with long-standing mental or emotional issues actively resist talking to Mendosa about things. (Which, I do hope someone at some point in the first few decades of the school at least starts making talking to her a requirement. Or at least have her and Caitrin pass notes like "you should see/talk to soandso". That'd be super helpful, they both seem to want to help but have their hands tied by the school's initial non-interference policy.)
OH YES. Speaking of the rarity of Keeping, I wasn't thinking of the rarity of Ellehemaei interacting as a reason. In fact, I suspect they'll congregate into pockets, so if there's one, there's probably more. It's just that I don't think there's going to be a lot of it around. At the very least, most of the Ellehemaei who graduate Addergoole are going to avoid getting caught in it like the plague. I still think it'd wind up being a single-digit percentage of the Ellehemaei population at most.
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Date: 2014-08-16 04:25 pm (UTC)I can certainly agree with all of that. Particularly in that being forced to send your kids back to the same place that traumatized you is the worst aspect of the whole situation. I even have a theory that the 'not freak out' mind control also works to suppress moral outrage and may therefore cause the moral collapse we see in so many students, more then I'd have thought would happen from kids that had been raised in a first world environment for all their lives up to that point. The thought is: how morals work on a day to day basis is if we do, or contemplate doing, something that goes against our morals we feel bad about it, the worse the action the worse we feel. But if the 'not freak out' mind control suppresses or just dulls that bad feeling then when the students do bad things they don't feel bad and thus continue to do them, and worse.
Re: Kids having kids
Definitely some truth there. Much of it is they are kids and aren't ready to have kids of their own, as you say. Some of it is a result of how the kids are conceived, frequently by sexual assault. It's all well and good to say to not blame the sins of the father on the child, but if every time you look into your child's face you see the monster that assaulted you, well that's going to make it hard to love them. There's actually a great filk song set in Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar series about that very thing: Her Father's Eyes
Re: Likelihood of rebelling
As much as I would like to disagree you're probably correct.
Re: Mendosa
Every time I think of Mendosa I can't help but flash back to that one line in her introduction, where she thinks to herself that she spent a very short time Kept, under controlled circumstances, and believes that that prepared her to relate to what these kids are going through. That is such a... I don't even have the words for it. But that's what I always think about when I say she's completely out of touch with these kids. If she was a competent psychiatrist and actually really understood what was happening with this kids she'd be far far more proactive. Insisting on postmortem interviews with every Kept at the end of their Keeping at the very least. She may very well have her hands tied, though I don't know what the point of having a shrink on staff if you prevent them from doing their job.
Re: Rarity of Keeping
I can certainly agree that the main lesson Addergoole teaches about Keeping (which I'm pretty sure is not one they actually mean to teach) is that being Kept is a miserable experience, at the least, and should be avoided at all costs.
Kuro_Neko
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Date: 2014-08-16 08:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-08-16 09:14 pm (UTC)I can say for certain that there were zero serious thefts, sexual assaults, felony assaults, murders, suicides or even serious drug use throughout all my school years. No one was even expelled. There were bullies, definitely, as I can unfortunately personally attest to, but it never crossed any serious lines, rarely even got physical.
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Date: 2014-08-16 09:21 pm (UTC)My school had, for certain, attempted suicide, felony assault, and serious drug use.
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Date: 2014-08-16 09:43 pm (UTC)Additionally, we only had one suspected of having an abusive home-life and only one teen pregnancy, and that in late grade 12 so she was already 18.
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Date: 2014-08-16 09:47 pm (UTC)The first teen pregnancy I can remember was in middle school.
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Date: 2014-08-16 09:56 pm (UTC)I don't know what it was. My younger sister's high school (my high school closed just after I graduated so she went to a different one) had a daycare, there were that many teen mothers. *shrug*
Edit: It might be that my school chain was out in the suburbs and about the time I graduated there was no longer enough kids to justify keeping the full chain open, so they bused all the remaining high school aged kids, my sister included, to an inner-city school.
Edit2: the fact that that place was huge might have also played a part. All the inner-city schools were. You could have fit three of my high school in there with plenty of room to spare. When my sister went there, there were a thousand students in attendance and there were still whole sections of classrooms unused.
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Date: 2014-08-12 10:41 pm (UTC)You're talking about Regine, yes? Because I'm nigh unto positive that not every member of the staff is like that. The vast majority, if not all of them, are half-blooded or more themselves. It's the pure-blooded Ellehemaei (and yes. Regine has a tendency to think like one more often than not) that "use humans as their playthings."
I don't see that the Ellehemaei are going to stop dicking around with humans just because human civilization has fallen.
Not human civilization. All civilization. And if anything gets people to change, it's walking into a town and realizing that it's all pure-blooded humans who have ringed themselves in hawthorne because they know fae hate it, and they're your only chance at food that isn't the plants you can Work.
If anything they're going to do it more, since they now have much less to fear then before.
No no no no no. The emergence of the fae into more common knowledge means that their weapons are better known too. Iron, rowan, hawthorn--humans can use those against you. And yes, there are going to be fae that work around that, and just ice entire towns as soon as they get to them. There's examples of it in canon. They have just as much to fear as the humans--because now the humans can keep them from basic necessities as well. Just because a human can't Keep a fae doesn't mean they can't lock them in a hawthorn collar and do much the same.
Due to the brainwashing and general trauma the students suffer in Addergoole I can't see that they're not going to have the same general attitude.
All of them? Every single one? I've seen you talk about this a lot in previous comments, and I'd love to know how you have such in-depth knowledge of every single student who comes through Addergoole and how they are mentally affected by the school's Workings and proceedings. Show me one who guaranteed goes out and shows serious signs of turning Nedetakaei, and I can point out at least three more who don't. Some students learn from the mistakes of the school.
And this isn't even considering the Nedetakaei.
Reasonably so, since they're not Ellehemaei anymore. Hence the different name.
Early on (but not directly after) post-apoc humans might be too in need of what the Ellehemaei can supply
And the fae may be in need of things the humans can supply. Not every fae has the Words for everything. If you don't have Huamu AND Panida AND Kwxe AND Unutu AND Yaku AND (you get the picture) you could very easily have a serious problem on your hands. And maybe you can't make water, and the only fresh water source for miles is a human town. See above.
or the race as a whole changes considerably, which they've shown absolutely no indication they can
Give me definite canonical proof that after the apocalypse, nothing changes. Can you provide long-standing evidence that Addergoole is not worlds better than the Ellehemaei world that Luke--Regine--Mike grew up in? Can you show that the new generation doesn't take the pieces from the storm and build something better?
There was a reason why the Ellehemaei were hiding from humanity to begin with after all.
Which is? If they're so powerful and can just conquer and control the entire human race, why didn't they? The fact that the humans are so numerous is the whole point. The apocalypse brings everyone to an even playing ground, fae and human alike.
For once, I'd love to see you comment with some basis for your opinions rather than just angry venting about how you view the world.
no subject
Date: 2014-08-13 12:10 am (UTC)No, in fact I'm not. Regine treats everyone like that so she's not a good example.
Not human civilization. All civilization. And if anything gets people to change, it's walking into a town and realizing that it's all pure-blooded humans who have ringed themselves in hawthorne because they know fae hate it, and they're your only chance at food that isn't the plants you can Work.
And how is it that all of humanity has learned that Hawthorne is bad for fey? The only people who know that are the fey themselves, and they're unlikely to want to share that. The only mentions Lyn has made that I'm aware of regarding humans taking down fey is either with massive firepower or sheer weight of numbers.
No no no no no. The emergence of the fae into more common knowledge means that their weapons are better known too.
Again, how are humans learning this?
All of them? Every single one?
No, not all of them. But a few bad apples ruin the bunch. And once a particular group earns humanity's collective distrust, like I don't know, destroying civilization as we know it, they're all going to be tarred with the same brush. I can even give you a historical example: Nazis. Not all, or even most Nazi soldiers were genocidal mass murderers. But after WWII admitting you were a Nazi would get you lynched in many places, and run out of town everywhere else. You think your average person is going to be willing to give any fey a chance after they wiped out nine tenths of the human race? And the few that are willing, well, they're as likely to get one of those bad apples as to get a good one. Your one in four odds aren't great when you consider the results of getting the unlucky one.
Reasonably so, since they're not Ellehemaei anymore. Hence the different name.
Actually they are Ellehemaei. That's the name of their collective race. Which are then split into two ideological factions, the Shenera Endraae and the Nedetakaei. Further, how the hell are humans supposed to tell them apart? They're all the same race and humans don't possess any of the proper history. As secretive as the fey are, they're not going to be in any hurry to share either. Especially if it means airing their dirty laundry.
And the fae may be in need of things the humans can supply.
Sure, except the fey can just take what they need. Even a weak fey is vastly tougher and more dangerous then your average post-apoc human.
Give me definite canonical proof that after the apocalypse, nothing changes. Can you provide long-standing evidence that Addergoole is not worlds better than the Ellehemaei world that Luke--Regine--Mike grew up in? Can you show that the new generation doesn't take the pieces from the storm and build something better?
Obviously I can't point to canonical proof, otherwise we wouldn't even be having this debate. But at the same time, you can't point to anything that proves me wrong, or you would have done so already as well. So that's a pointless comment. The new generation could build something better.. except if they were going to do that they'd start in school and we've seen canonical proof that the cycle of abuse in Addergoole is still going strong into the second and third generations of students.
Which is? If they're so powerful and can just conquer and control the entire human race, why didn't they? The fact that the humans are so numerous is the whole point. The apocalypse brings everyone to an even playing ground, fae and human alike.
They can't conquer and control humanity because there's too many of us. As to why they hid, that's so obvious I'm not sure why you're even asking. They'd been dicking humanity around forever and humanity was finally starting to get to the point were we might have been able to effectively fight back. So the choice was either stop being dicks or hide their dickishness. They choose the latter.
For once, I'd love to see you comment with some basis for your opinions rather than just angry venting about how you view the world.
That's a little hypocritical considering that that post of yours was just as angry and lacking in factual basis as mine have ever been. With the added bonus that you're angry at a real person, me, whereas I was only ever angry at fictional characters.
Kuro_Neko
no subject
Date: 2014-08-13 12:17 am (UTC)And how is it that all of humanity has learned that Hawthorne is bad for fey? The only people who know that are the fey themselves, and they're unlikely to want to share that. The only mentions Lyn has made that I'm aware of regarding humans taking down fey is either with massive firepower or sheer weight of numbers.
It may not have shown up in written canon - hrrm, I think it 's in Jamian's piece, and it's in Escape, but that's not published yet - but "good fae," fae on the side of not letting the gods take over the world, DO tell humans how to take down a fae.
There's just too many gods, too many Nedetakaei, for the humans to survive at all otherwise.
no subject
Date: 2014-08-13 12:37 am (UTC)Though considering there's no global communications anymore, there's no guarantee regarding how wide spread that information is, or that it hasn't been distorted along the way. And a bit of wood doesn't really level the playing field when you're up against magic. It just makes playing marginally survivable. Additionally, rowan and hawthorn don't grow everywhere. If you happen to live in an area where it doesn't grow you're kinda out of luck.
Kuro_Neko
no subject
Date: 2014-08-13 12:51 am (UTC)But it's not comparable to Nazis. Nazis are a faction of humans. Jews are a faction of humans. But is Elie Wiesel going to outright shun anyone from the Nazi Party, simply because of their previous misdeeds, if they've atoned? Is he going to outright hate every German because of what the Nazis did? Having heard him speak, I'm likely to say no. Am I to hate every person from the Middle East because of al-Qaeda? No. I'm not saying there isn't going to be rising up against the fae. There is, and there will be. But the belief that they can never live in harmony is absurd. Also, taking every fae and comparing them to Nazis is insulting. I think Luke might have words to say about that.
That's the name of their collective race.
That I'll concede on. I mistook Ellehemaei for Shenera Endraae. As for the rest, Lyn covered that. Some did tell, and then it becomes "the ones who attack us" and "the ones who don't."
Sure, except the fey can just take what they need. Even a weak fey is vastly tougher and more dangerous then your average post-apoc human.
And who's to say they will? Yes, there are more than a few that would. But look at Mallory. Look at Kailani. Look at Jamian. Look at Ceinwen. Look at Kyle. At Belfreya, at Porter, at Gabriel, Arien. None of these people would just abjectly steal from a human town. And I'm sure there's more, but those are the ones I pulled off the roster off-hand. Unless they were bleeding profusely and had no other option, I can't believe that it's just a matter of theft. We're still talking about people, here.
you can't point to anything that proves me wrong, or you would have done so already as well.
True, to some extent, as the story I wanted to link isn't publicly viewable yet. (The trouble of being beta-reader for Addergoole and its component pieces.) And yes, there is a cycle of abuse, but here and here are at least two instances in which we see change in the humans. (Granted, the first one is suspicious, but it's up to reader determination what the speaker at the end means.) There are more, but it's late and I can't surf through Lyn's entire DW account right now. Also, I can use plenty of information that Lyn and I have discussed about future generations and characters seen on the roster, but that's difficult to corroborate unless I have Lyn specifically weigh in for me, and I'm not for inconveniencing the author.
They'd been dicking humanity around forever
Says who? I do not remember a single piece of evidence that says that Ellehemaei as a whole has "dicked around humanity" forever. I think you're reading what you want to see into the text.
That's a little hypocritical considering that that post of yours was just as angry and lacking in factual basis as mine have ever been.
Angry? No. Frustrated that despite several people weighing in with valid options over the time I've been watching you comment, and yet your opinion is unswayable because you believe what you believe and insist on painting every fae with the same brush and counting the "good guys" as the minority because you believe it to be so (because gods and Nedetakaei caused the war, thus all fae ever are bad), yes.
And being frustrated/angry at fictional characters is fine. Asserting that your view of someone else's world is absolute and correct instead of considering the way you see something and wondering if it's accurate and in line with the author's view point is another. I'm hoping to clear up some misconceptions you seem to have about the universe, along with such posters like Inventrix and Wysteria, because I happen to have a unique connection to the story, and because Lyn only has limited time and energy to handle such things herself.
no subject
Date: 2014-08-13 02:39 am (UTC)I was just giving a general example of a group tarred with the same brush as a minority of the group. Obviously I can't give a perfect example since in real life there aren't any other intelligent races except for humanity.
And who's to say they will? Yes, there are more than a few that would. But look at Mallory. Look at Kailani. Look at Jamian. Look at Ceinwen. Look at Kyle. At Belfreya, at Porter, at Gabriel, Arien. None of these people would just abjectly steal from a human town. And I'm sure there's more, but those are the ones I pulled off the roster off-hand. Unless they were bleeding profusely and had no other option, I can't believe that it's just a matter of theft. We're still talking about people, here.
Yes, but most or all of those people are going to be pretending to be humans. The whole point of this discussion was about Ellehemaei and humans co-existing *without* hiding.
True, to some extent, as the story I wanted to link isn't publicly viewable yet. (The trouble of being beta-reader for Addergoole and its component pieces.) And yes, there is a cycle of abuse, but here and here are at least two instances in which we see change in the humans. (Granted, the first one is suspicious, but it's up to reader determination what the speaker at the end means.) There are more, but it's late and I can't surf through Lyn's entire DW account right now. Also, I can use plenty of information that Lyn and I have discussed about future generations and characters seen on the roster, but that's difficult to corroborate unless I have Lyn specifically weigh in for me, and I'm not for inconveniencing the author.
The problem is Addergoole only produces roughly 20-30ish grads a year, and will only produce about 3000 in it's entire 200 year run. Out of 32 million humans. And not all of those grads will be good apples. So the few hundred or thousand humans who encounter good Addergoole grads will have a positive experience. That's not going to balance out the other 31,990,000 who only know the fey by the returned gods or the Nedetakaei or whatever random Shenera Endraae who are out there.
Says who? I do not remember a single piece of evidence that says that Ellehemaei as a whole has "dicked around humanity" forever. I think you're reading what you want to see into the text.
It's stated in several places that the Ellehemaei are the source of most of the legends of monsters in the world. The minotaur, the gorgons, demons, satyrs, succubi, all Ellehemaei. Those legends are not generally happy fluffy tales nor do they end well. Either the monster kills the human, or the reverse. Where there's smoke there's fire. And considering how they treat each other (see the harsh lessons the school is teaching about Keeping) do you really think they treated ancient humans any better? That is in fact the whole problem with the returned gods. They had set themselves up as gods, and not nice ones. And now they're back and expect humanity to bow to their whims like they used to.
Angry? No. Frustrated that despite several people weighing in with valid options over the time I've been watching you comment, and yet your opinion is unswayable because you believe what you believe and insist on painting every fae with the same brush and counting the "good guys" as the minority because you believe it to be so (because gods and Nedetakaei caused the war, thus all fae ever are bad), yes.
It's a dystopia, Lyn has never been shy about admiting that. In dystopias the majority of those in power are bad and the good guys *are* in the minority, that's the definition. I'm also entitled to my opinion. And it's not just that the gods started the war, that's actually really beside the point. It's mostly that the main adult characters are running a school that's more cult then school and where an average of 30% of the student body is subjected to prolonged physical and/or emotional abuse... by design. We see very little of adult Ellehemaei outside of Addergoole, but it's at least heavily implied, if not outright stated, that the staff are so progressive as to be borderline radical in terms of Ellehemaei society. What I get out of that is the rest of them are much worse.
And being frustrated/angry at fictional characters is fine. Asserting that your view of someone else's world is absolute and correct instead of considering the way you see something and wondering if it's accurate and in line with the author's view point is another. I'm hoping to clear up some misconceptions you seem to have about the universe, along with such posters like Inventrix and Wysteria, because I happen to have a unique connection to the story, and because Lyn only has limited time and energy to handle such things herself.
I have never once stated that my opinions were anything but just that, opinions. Which I'm entitled to have. At every point where someone could point to clear canon evidence to something or Lyn has stated some fact, I have always accepted that. I'll admit I sometimes am not clear that my opinions were just that. And I know that has annoyed some people. But whenever challenged I've never hesitated to clear that up. My opinions are usually on character motivations, mostly of ones who have not been major pov characters. Unless Lyn outright says either that my opinion is wrong, or specifically what that character's motivation is then who's to say my opinion is wrong? Just because it doesn't agree with yours doesn't automatically make it wrong, any more then the reverse is true. Take this post for instance. Lyn stated a fact. Did I say, no that's not possible? No I didn't, all I said was I couldn't see it happening that way. An opinion, nothing more. Which I'm entitled to have. And it is possible to talk me around. If you look at some of the comments I made when I first started posting you'd see I had a much harsher view of the setting then I do now. And the reason that changed is discussions like this one. Mostly with Wysteria, with some help from Inventrix and the occasional Word of God from Lyn.
Kuro_Neko
no subject
Date: 2014-08-13 03:02 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-08-13 11:30 am (UTC)